SNOWBLOWER FOR COMMERCIAL USE?
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Author: BASIC
Date: 9 Dec 2006 11:08 pm
Hi,I was lucky to come across this forum,I'm a landscaper in NW NJ and plow snow in the winter,I've thought about adding a snowblower to do sidewalks and started looking at the different models.I belive I would like a 2 stage,its not unusual for us to get 12"+ snowstorms a couple of times a year,much of it can be wet and heavy.What I've considered so far is a Honda 928WAS,very expensive,Ariens 9526DLE and 11528DLE,very hard to find a dealer with them ,one about and hour awayand Toro 828 LXE,1028 LXE and 1128 OXE,easy to find dealers with them,one is 5 min. from my house.How do they compare?I've pretty much given up on the idea of the Honda,again very expensive.I know the Ariens is a Professional model but how much better is it then the Toro,its not the price the 952DLE is about $300 more then the 828LXE its more how far the dealer is and how hard the Ariens seem to be to get.Is the iron gear housing really that much better then the aluminum one on the Toro?I spoke to a dealer that does service on both the Tecumseh and the B&S and he said there both good engines,its how there maintained.How much HP do I need?Any thoughts and suggestions,please?Thanks for any help.
Author: BASIC
Date: 9 Dec 2006 11:13 pm
Sorry,I just relized I posted in the wrong place,nice way for me to start off.Could a Moderator please move it or I'll repost,sorry again.
Author: ramit
Date: 9 Dec 2006 11:25 pm
Welcome to the Forum.
It's moved to it's proper place.
Author: ramit
Date: 9 Dec 2006 11:40 pm
I believe your dealer is correct about the engines.
Take care of it and it'll take care of you.
I got 16+ years out of my L head tec, my neighbor has it now , still going good.
My dad has 17+ on his Tec L head, still running fine.
B&S is new to the blower engines, years ago when they 1st entered it they had problems and went away (as I understand it). Back now and seem to be doing just fine.
The Toro has done away with sheer pins, since they believe their gear case is that good.
I bought from my local trusted dealer sold who sells Toro.
That and the joystick convinced me.
He's seen no problems with the gear case or anything else with the Toro's.
He also sells Snapper.
He sells to the local state collages.
They buy the Toro 11/28 and the 10/28.
They prefer the 10/28 only because it doesn't come with the self adjusting scrapper bar. They have had their issues with grabbing turf, turf getting stuck between the bar and housing, and having the adjustable scrapper bar stick up.
I have it and the bar really keeps me from getting a gut full of handle bars from the lips/ridges between the driveway and walk way and the cracks in the walk way.
I haven't had it get stuck up on me. But looking at the 10/28 vs the 11/28, the adjustable scrapper bar can come off and the fixed bar just bolted on.
I don't think you'll go wrong with either the Ariens or Toro.
So then it's who you want to deal with and buy from and which machine do you feel comfortable with.
I went from a 5hp 24" to the 11hp ohv 28" cause I live at a dead end and have a lot of driveway to clear and not many places to put the snow.
When we get clobbered, I went from almost 4 hrs from start to finish with the 5hp/24 , to much less than 2hrs with the 11/28.
I re-throw the snow to get it where I need to pile it.
The extra hp just doesn't care about the packed wet snow. I had to be real careful with the 5hp and take my time and really manage the piles.
So from my home owners experience soo far, More power can buy you time.
The power max chute system allows the Toro to do just fine in the light snow too. It'll blow that inch of snow well, even at a slow forward pace.
I use to have to run with my 5/24 to get enough snow in the system to get it to blow half way decent.
Author: Majorxlr8n
Date: 10 Dec 2006 12:40 am
Welcome - a fellow Jersey guy here...
My thoughts:
If you're dead set on a 2 stage, make sure it has at least 7 or 8hp. You want a powerful machine so you can get the job done quickly to go onto the next job. Since you will not be able to "see" what might be hiding beneath the snow (newspaper, door mat, dog chain/leash, tree branch), there is a high probability that you WILL injest something into the augers, and you will want a heavy duty gearbox that can take some punishment. You will need ramps to load/unload the machine if you're working solo, as they are HEAVY. Have you considered a Simplicity? They are probably the most heavy duty for the dollar IMHO.
On the other hand, if you're only doing sidewalks with the snowblower, why not consider a small, light single stage? Many snow contractors use Toro's (3650 or Snow Commander) since they can be loaded/unloaded by one person WITHOUT ramps. They also offer nice hp figures (6.5 & 7hp). However, I don't think they would take any auger punishment too well.
No recommendations, just some insights. Hope it helps.
Marty
Author: BASIC
Date: 10 Dec 2006 7:38 am
Thankyou both for the welcome and the response.I do have a Simplicity dealer about an hour away which would put me in the same situation as the Ariens.I have considered a single stage but the problem I see is blowing hard packed snow on sidewalks where the county plow has been thru.I'm a little suprised that more companies don't market a line of blowers to the commercial market.Thanks agin both of you.
Author: AZinOH
Date: 10 Dec 2006 8:38 am
I agree that a 8-10 hp machine would be better suited to the task of removing the snow, but it's the loading-unloading that bothers me. Is this going to be a 1-person operation? If yes, the big machine would not be my first choice. The Toro 1028 for example, weighs in at 245 lbs. By comparison the smallest Toro 2-stage (Power Throw 522) is 143 pounds. That's a huge difference. If as stated the goal is to clear sidewalks the 522 would do the job ...perhaps not as fast as a larger machine would but still acceptable. OTOH, if you've got someone helping you then go for the larger machine.
AZ
Author: krislu
Date: 10 Dec 2006 8:56 am
Basic- Welcome! Commercial machines in todays market are: Ariens 1336DLE, 1332DLE & Simplicity 1338E, 1332E & Toro 1128OXE, 1028LXE and Honda HS1132TAS, HS928TAS. 4 manufacters, there are others but they are not commercial quality IMO. I am partial to Ariens and Simplicity but I don't think you can go wrong with any of the machines listed above. I always preach to buy from a local dealer should you need service and support. I recommend for you to buy a Toro because of how close the dealers are for you. I am surprised that you can't find an Ariens dealer close to you though.
"I'm a little suprised that more companies don't market a line of blowers to the commercial market."
The snowblower market is not as big as the lawnmower market and commercial guys usually are into bigger equipment, trucks with plows etc. Manufacters are trying to hold a selling price. Your only other choice is a used Gravely walkbehind tractor. They were ( not manufactered anymore ) sold and marketed to the commercial/farm/industrial community. It is/was the only all gear driven ( no belts ) snowblower, but it's not really a snowblower it's a tractor and that being said it doesn't have the tight turning radius of a snowblower . If your interested in a Gravely look on e-bay. I should say that Gravely did come out (2 months ago) with a new ( it's a swiss import, Rapid tractor ) walkbehind hydro tractor that has a snowblower attachment. It sells for $8000. Buy the Toro.
- Kris :)
Author: BASIC
Date: 10 Dec 2006 9:17 am
Thanks again for all the response.I'm a one man operation,I thought I'd use ramps to load/unload the blower.I woud sure listen to any opinions on single stage blowers also.Thankyou.
Author: BASIC
Date: 10 Dec 2006 9:23 am
I think BCS an Italian Co. makes a 2 whell tractor also,wat to expensive for me.There is one Ariens dealer in the county I live in a hardware store that doesn't seem to interested in anyone but the homeowner.I live in a rural county at least as NJ goes,We avg. about 60" of snow a year with a high of 104" in 95-96.
Author: krislu
Date: 10 Dec 2006 10:27 am
Basic- To my knowledge Toro makes the best single stage machines. Others will be along to confirm or deny this. Yes, BCS sells here in the U.S. and is not cheap. Your hardware store and (usually most) target the consumer (homeowner) . I assume the Toro dealer near you is a real equipment dealer and not a hardware store or Home depot. That's the guy you should buy from. - Kris :)
Author: BASIC
Date: 10 Dec 2006 10:42 am
Thanks Kris.How does Honda compare to toro?What will a two stage do that a single stage cannot?
Author: OldToroOwner
Date: 10 Dec 2006 11:10 am
Quote:
What will a two stage do that a single stage cannot?
A 2-stage is generally more powerful and can hurl deep, wet snow...which is probably what you are going to get in your area.(like me :lol: )
They also have power to the wheels on all models...a "must", IMO.
Try pushing a single stage up an icy driveway, and you'll know what I mean. :P
If I was doing this for a living, I'd get a commercial 2 stage model with shear pins that had at least a 9 hp engine..no question!
I'm not saying you couldn't later add a nice little SS Toro to your arsenal later...but your bread & butter should be a nice two stage because it will not bog down when you get hit hard with serious snow...and you know you will get hit, sooner or later!!
Reasons: It will be built tougher, longer warranty, it will have more than enough power for sidewalks and smaller driveways, and..it will have shear pins for all the things that can happen..newspapers, phonebooks..etc.. :cry: (Remember, it's commercial property..no one will give a d*mn about what's left in the sidewalk!..)
Anything bigger than a 9 HP is going to have bigger bucket, yes.. but it will also be a bear to work with in tighter places.
Ariens, Simplicity, Toro and Honda...that's the four I'd look at.
Anyone of those will be an excellent machine.
Good Luck. :D
Author: EGreen
Date: 10 Dec 2006 11:59 am
I'd go with the Toro's in this case. The Ariens Pro Models (I believe) are heavier than their Toro siblings. Toro has some plastic parts that help bring the weight down and I'm sure that would be of benefit to you.
Now will those parts hold up in commercial use (and abuse?). I see thoughts in my head of the plastic joystick getting snapped off from catching the machine or something similar to that.
The all Steel Ariens would certainly have the ruggedness you need and the differential design rather than friction disk would in the long term possibly be a better choice.
When I was talking with my dealer he was more than willing to order from Ariens any model I wanted. Talk to them about that and I'm sure he could get one for you. Dealers have been known to shift surplus supply around too.
Author: ramit
Date: 10 Dec 2006 12:18 pm
EGreen wrote:
the differential design rather than friction disk would in the long term possibly be a better choice.
EGreen, doesn't the Ariens still use a friction disk for speed and fwd/rev selection?
Isn't the diff design just for splitting the power to either wheel after the friction disk?
Just has Toro uses a something akin to a "locked diff" for normal operation, and a trigger for each side to open up the side you want for better stearing... but still a friction disk for fw/rev and speed select.
The only one I knew was different was the Honda with the hydrostatic drive.
Author: OldToroOwner
Date: 10 Dec 2006 12:59 pm
Quote:
The only one I knew was different was the Honda with the hydrostatic drive.
Ramit..yes, you are correct.
Author: newjerseybt
Subject: Snowscaping
Date: 10 Dec 2006 1:31 pm
I have a bifold ramp that many landscapers use. I got it from discount ramps.com. It can hold 1500 pounds and is wide and long enough to walk up with a 315 pound 2 stage snowblower. Since it is bifold, it stores easy, can be moved by one person, and works with a pick-up truck tailgate or from a landscaping trailer. It won't slip as it has 2 adjustable length hooks and is solid welded aluminum.
I also found the ramp handy for doing raised cement patios with 3 or 4 stairs . A snowblower may mark up a wooden one though.
As for the snowblower...I used to live in Jersey and there are lots of fussy homeowners that would not like your snowblower skids from digging up their fancy lawns. That is why I suggest no more than 26 inches wide.
Even if you have a 28 inch snowblower, you will need to do 2 passes on a sidewalk which means no time saved there. Also you need to do garden walks which are extra narrow and be able to squeeze next to cars that people are too lazy to move or can't move at a moments notice.
I like Ariens or Simplicity. I have an Arien's 1128DLE pro model and wish I had the 26" pro model for my garden paths. The differential is important in making tight turns either CW or CCW. If you have other equipment that may accidentally fall against your snowblower, you may want to think about all metal as it may not be under warranty for abuse.
Honda is great, but lots of money for the hydro and tiny smooth speed increments are not as important for moving snow as a cutting lawns in tight areas. IMO. If you blow a Honda hydro expect $300 for the hydro plus labor. If you wear out a rubber disk in a Ariens or Simplicity figure $7 to $23 for a new one plus labor. (my guess) OPE people here can give more accurate figures.
Author: SnowPro
Date: 10 Dec 2006 3:29 pm
All good responses. I run my machines commercially, too. You are right there are only a few commercial grade machines out there. The Honda is nice, but I am worried about the trans, over the long haul. Around here though, it is about the same price as the 26" Ariens pro machine.
Honestly, I don't get the love affair of the single stage machine. I am NOT trying to start any fights here, but I bought one, a Honda, and I have to say that it was the biggest waste of money I have ever spent. It sits in the shop now and I can't seem to even GIVE it away. Two stage all the way.
Of the choices listed, no question in my opinion, but go with the Ariens Pro machines. I have them and they are great. All steel, differentials, powerful and most importantly FAST. Time really is money. They have the speed and power to get the job done quickly. Now I must say, that having a few of them might be clouding my judgement, OR, by the fact that I run them commercially, I can tell you they will stand up to years of faithful service. I've got 26" and 33" models. Always loved the 33" machines, but this year I have been running one of the 26" machines as it is lighter and faster than the 33".
Never tried a Simplicity machine so I can't comment.
Currently all of my machines are powered by B&S Intec Snow engines. 13hp on the two 33" machines and the 26ers are powered by 11hp engines. Lots of power.
Two stage is the ONLY way to go......you never know what is coming next, so why run a single stage that is only good for pristine conditions, IMHO.
As far as loading is concerned, I have a Buddy ramp on the back of my truck. www.Buddyramp.com
As I see it, it is the only way to go. You will love it all year round actually. There are others out there like that too. www.usaramp.com
Hope this helps some.
Ken
:)
Author: Chris S
Date: 10 Dec 2006 4:33 pm
Welcome and my .02,
The Toro will serve you well. I am a big fan of the Ariens and think the 9524 DLE Pro model is a perfect all around model for size including width and weight and performanceand build and internal quality vs price. It also has that differential and man is that sweet.
As for the Honda they are in a class by themselves, expensive? yes, but worth every penny. There are no reports that I have seen read or heard about both at my dealer, to others with these machines and in the internet of, not one, of any Honda hydro drive on the snowthros breaking down. One pass everytime, perfect speed due to the infinate hydro and you are done and lets not talk about simply pulling the hydro lever back for reverse. As for 9 hp GSX engines (smooth, quiet, a breeze to start even in sub zero weather, my 90lb wife can start it at sub zero), I was at my dealer one day picking up shear pins and we he asked me how I was liking my Honda and I told him I loved it. He then told me a story about how he had a 9 hp GSX engine in the shop like the one that came on my blower. He said it ran a generator and had over 3000 hrs on it. It ran great, didn't leak or burn a drop of oil but the owner wanted it rebuilt. Why? I asked, because he is loaded he said and wants it done.
Impressive Commercial engines to say the least.
Add the tracks for slippery icey conditions and steep drives and walkways, no pressure on your back, ease of riding up and down ramps and the ability to spin it on a dime. Finally add the fact that you can throw the snow over the powerlines across the street (they are rated at 50+ feet and I feel that they underestimated after using mine for years) and it doesn't get any better.
It hurts to write the check for the money and then you never regret it once you use the machine they are that nice.
I paid $1800 for my 928 TA in 2001 as an early bird special, I would pay more for her now and not blink and eye and this time around not be pained paying for it because I know what I am buying.
Ok, I'll get off my box now lol.....
Good luck with the choice.... :D
C
Author: BASIC
Date: 10 Dec 2006 5:05 pm
Thankyou all for the help and the nice welcome.I just e-mailed Ariens maybe they can track(no pun intended)a dealer with one of the blowers.I did speak with a dealer last week and he said he has one 9526DLE in stock and two more comming in but again hesabout an hour away.If I went with the Toro which would you all suggest,the 1028LXE W/Tecumseh with the L head or the 1128OXE W/Tecumseh OHV engine?Theres about a $300 price difference between the two.There is another dealer that I e-mailed that thinks he has a P10524E,if he does I might be able to go take a look this week but again hes 45 min. away.
Author: ramit
Date: 10 Dec 2006 5:26 pm
For the Toro's, the price difference between the 10/28 and the 11/28 is not only for the motor but for the added feature of the self adjusting scrapper.
The self adjusting scrapper also swings up and out of the way when it hits something that the blower's scrapper would normally get caught on.
Which me as a home owner , I love and it hasn't given me a problem.
I got the bars in my gut a bunch of times on my hold 5/24.
The 11/28 Toro self adjusting scrapper has kept me from getting the handle bars in the gut when going from the driveway to the walk way and driveway to the street.
But my OPE dealer said that the state collage campus guys tend to buy the 10/28 since it doesn't have the self adjusting scrapper.
They only have one complaint with their 11/28s - the adjustable scrapper. When it eats some turf, it can get stuck in the up position leaving an inch of snow on the ground.
So their favorite between the two is the 10/28.
But looking at the 10/28 vs the 11/28, the adjustable scrapper can be removed and the fixed bolted on.
Ariens has a dealer locator online..
http://www.ariens.com/dealer_locator/
Author: AJace
Date: 10 Dec 2006 5:34 pm
Basic, Welcome, I like Ariens and Toro myself. If I went with the Toro I'd get the 1128OXE. The Ariens you are considering if a great choice also.
Author: dave___in___ct
Date: 11 Dec 2006 7:35 pm
Hi BASIC...
...and welcome here...
My choice... Ariens 9526DLE or 11528DLE... definately giving preference to the 11528DLE for your commercial use... the 1336" machine may be too wide for some of your applications... maybe not... ?
Most all commercial use snow blowers here I see are Ariens machines...
Forget the BCS solely as a snowblower... too expensive... to big and bulky/hard to handle for manurvering... I have an 8hp BCS 2-wheel tractor with the snowblower attachment... & other attachments... and I just bought a new 2-stage single-purpose snowblower... the BCS 1-stage blower does work very-very well though !
Dave...
Author: BASIC
Date: 11 Dec 2006 8:58 pm
Hi again,I got an e-mail back from Ariens saying if a dealer didn't have a blower in stock all they would have to do is order one,Ariens web-site shows they have no blowers in stock(the on I'm looking for) as well as the Ariens dealers I spoke with.I called a dealer that carries Simplicity,they have the P10524E in stock,they also have last years model without heated handles and the electric chute control.Thats one thing about the Simplicity that concerns me is the electric chute control,how reliable is it?Does the P10524E have a cast iron gear case like the Ariens?How does the Simplicity compare to the Ariens?I'm going over to the dealer tomorrow to take a look. Thankyou all again for your kind help.
Author: mishka
Date: 11 Dec 2006 9:46 pm
:welcome:
did you ever consider purchasing "pre- owned" :wink: snowblower?
Last winter I used 1972 Allis Chalmers 8hp/28" to clean 15 properties sidewalks driveways all with this snowblower and VERY satisfied with it performance cast-iron gearbox with needle bearings ball bearings on auger and impelor, real transmission wih cast-iron case, tool-free lock/unlock one tire,hands-free auger clutch..... no heated grips :pound:
IMO older machines all was built to nowadays heavy-duty specifications
this year I got one more identical to AC(blue in avatar) and 1983 Snapper as a backup
same as you are I am working alone....Ramps must AC about 300 pounds and even 2 people can barely list it.
last winter I meet a guy who did twenty plus driveways with snowblowers he had new Toro 26" and he experienced lots of problems hi said"it works good when it's working" that storm Toro was broken and he using 1990's Ariens off which performance he was not really happy
mike
Author: BASIC
Date: 11 Dec 2006 9:55 pm
Mike,thanks for thought but I'd like to buy new since my mechanical ability only goes so far.I do agree alot of older things are built stronger than todays equipment.Thanks again sir.
Author: mishka
Date: 11 Dec 2006 10:07 pm
BASIC wrote:
Mike,thanks for thought but I'd like to buy new since my mechanical ability only goes so far.I do agree alot of older things are built stronger than todays equipment.Thanks again sir.
well my mistake I should mention that all repairs needed for all 3 machines including new paint job I did myself. Also old machines requires some attention until problems fixed, broken parts replaced and its back in operation way it should be
Author: mishka
Date: 11 Dec 2006 10:10 pm
[quote="mishka"]BASIC wrote:
Mike,thanks for thought but I'd like to buy new since my mechanical ability only goes so far.I do agree alot of older things are built stronger than todays equipment.Thanks again sir.
well my mistake I should mention that all repairs needed for all 3 machines including new paint job I did myself. Also old machines requires some constant until problems fixed, broken parts replaced and its back in operation way it should be after that just use it
Author: BASIC
Date: 12 Dec 2006 2:59 pm
Hi,I put a deposit on a Simplicity 1060DLXE snowblower,it was an 05 left over,almost the same as the P10524E,except 10 hp as compared to 10.5,no heated handles and a manual chute control instead of the electric,which I don't trust and dosen't have a manual function in case the electric control breaks,it was $150 less than the newer model.I came down to the electric chute control.The Simplicity is even more tank like in person,much beefier than than the Toro and also than the Ariens with the stronger built handles.I do think either the Toro or the Ariens would have been good choices but for me I think the Simplicity was the better one.The money I saved should pay for some ramps.It'll be a week or two before I can pick it up,I'm looking foward to putting it some good use.I'd like to thank evryone for all your kind help.I posted the snowblower question on a snowplow forum I go on,and tried to do as much reading as I could but the most help that I've gotten by far were from the members of this forum.I'd like to stay involved and participate when I can.I also will post more when I get and use the machine.I also help I me be of help to someone.Thankyou all for yor kindness.
Author: ramit
Date: 12 Dec 2006 3:06 pm
BASIC,
GREAT news. Seems you did very well.
We look forward to some new shinny machine pix, some actions shots and a review in the review section.
Best of luck with your new purchase!
We are very happy you found the forum and it's members most helpful.
What you just went through, I did last Aug, and I'm still here!
The gang here helped me through the process too.
The gang just keeps growing. Glad to have ya! just like all the new members!
Author: EGreen
Date: 12 Dec 2006 11:12 pm
Alright nice purchase! We'll love to have some pictures of the big beast. Since this blower is going to get some active use I would recommend bring your tool box with you incase you have to adjust the belt tension as it breaks in. This year during the big storm it finally put my Ariens over the edge and let the belt start slipping, adjusting the tension has it throwing like a champ again.
If you don't have a low pressure grease gun yet its a good investment to use on the grease fitting to keep the blower lubed so rust and such doesn't become a problem.
That concludes my orientation speech :)
Author: AJace
Date: 13 Dec 2006 3:41 am
This is awsome BASIC. I always enjoy reading what peoples concerns are about the products and the buying decisions they have to make. You did good, enjoy it and let us know how you like it.
Author: Vangellis
Date: 13 Dec 2006 10:24 pm
Nice choice Basic. Like Ramit said, Pics when the snow flies.
Kevin
Author: Garandman
Date: 20 Dec 2006 3:27 am
FYI, most dealers overinflate the tires to make them easy to move.