Forums Archive Index > Outdoor Power Equipment > Need Help Finding Relay
Date: 26 Nov 2006 4:25 pm
Need a little help finding two Hella 4RD 960 388-16 relays 12v 40A. Can get it at the boat place but I just thought that $40 each was a little high. I've tried google, yahoo, and the rest and following their links to parts places but i feel like someone that knows would really be able to help point me in the right direction.
Thanks!
Date: 26 Nov 2006 5:39 pm
There's a Bosch Relay, just for lighting (inductive) loads. But rated at 30amps inductive loads - 40amps DC.
There's a slight chance that that 40amp rating is the non inductive rating, just the DC rating on the Hella relay. ??
Are you using the relays for lighting or for something else?
I've used them by the bucket load, but haven't bought them in awhile.
I'll have to search them out and get you a link.
I think I use to pay ~ 4bucks - 8 bucks each , depending on where and how many.
It has a typical pin layout that is found in many OEM connector lay outs too.
You can solder or use .250" quick connectors and they can be used under the hood.
I just have to find an online source for ya.
Date: 26 Nov 2006 6:04 pm
Found a source for the original Bosch relay I was thinking of...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=330-070
And found something from Panasonic rated at 40amps for a lighting load.
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=95187&Row=60424&Site=US
I would tend to doubt that Hella is making their own relay.
Again, seeing the name Hella, I assumed your looking to use it for lighting.
-Bob
Date: 26 Nov 2006 6:21 pm
:lol: Ramit,
You are sharp and also very helpfull to any body on this forum!!!
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fred :D
Date: 26 Nov 2006 8:06 pm
Fred, thank you for the kind words.
But everyone on here pipes in when they can to help.
It's what makes the place, as another post was pointing out.
From our moderators cooling things down when it may get a little warm, to everyone pitching in with helpful info, or having an open discussion, from which we all discover and learn from.
Date: 26 Nov 2006 8:11 pm
jubol wrote:
:lol: Ramit,
You are sharp and also very helpfull to any body on this forum!!!
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fred :D
I'll second that Fred!
They are trim/tilt relays for my boat engine. So they power a little motor. It draws a good amount of power because I needed to take the relays out and jump the wires to get the engine to come down (cause i did not want to fool with the bypass screw) and the wire I used to jump them got hot pretty fast. It would be a nighmare to use something with different connectors because of the way the wiring is, there is no good way to shorten the wires. The thing that makes these a little special is they are "waterproof" I guess that means they are splashproof. They have some pottting material on them that I melted just a little bit when I left the key on. It should not have melted them but who knows why electricity does what it does. If worse comes to worse I'll clean them up best I can and silicone the base back to the lid and hope for the best. But I won't uncover the boat until March so I has time to search for new ones. I hate to jury rig stuff back together on the boat because, well, just because.
When it stalls (stops and over comes the pressure relief valve in the up position, happens every time it is raised to full up) in the up position it draws 29-35 amps.
Thanks!
Date: 26 Nov 2006 8:15 pm
Have you guys not thought of visiting ebay for some of these kinds of things :?
Date: 26 Nov 2006 8:45 pm
Termy, some times I worry about the pedigree of the item on Ebay.
Buying from a known dealer, and for 4 - 8 bucks, I'm not going to try and save a 1 or 2 bucks.
But if it's an odd ball item, not something likely to be knocked off, I would guess it's a decent chance.
A buddy of mine converted his 67'vet back to a big block, from being an EV... got 90% of the parts on Ebay! This is back in 99 or so.
Rob, I see.
Water proof, I would assume that means the base of the relay is sealed to the top, not just a snap fit.
A true electro-mechanical relay can't be fully potted.
A solid state relay could be.
What is the connector configuration?
Can you shoot a picture of it?
The bosch and panasonic looked just like the common automotive foot print.
I'm hoping your Hella was.
Motor load and a lighting load are the same, and worse than purely resistive. Both are " inductive", meaning the initial inrush when the relay closes is much larger than the running load current. The contacts are rated to handle that initial inrush.
It sounds, spec wize, as if the panasonic would do it.
40Amps continuous. Designed for inductive loads.
You could always RTV the base.
The relays are meant for under hood use and splash proof.
If it's an electro-mechanical relay, if the contacts wore, developed higher resistance, they could have heated up. The more they heat and arc and spark during use, the worse they get, the hotter they get, the more carbon they build and the worse it all gets... the arc and sparking, and pitting. The heat from their contacts conducts down through the metal post that comes out of the case causing localized melting at those points.
The only other thing that can make an electro-mechanical relay melts it's case... all over and not just at one or two post areas on the case, is if the coil is not rated for 100% duty cycle, and the time it's energized, it developes enough heat to cause a failure in it's winding, which causes more heat, relay may still work, case starts to melt.. then winding opens up and no more relay.
Is your relay solid state or electro-mechanical?
(click when it was good? = electro-mechanical).
With the system not working, and the need to jump out the contacts of the relay, does the relay still click?
If so, the contact died.
If not, and it is an electro-mechanical relay, then the coil opened up from being energized to long if not rated for 100% duty cycle.
Like the old Ford starter relays...
If the relay's coil was rated for 100% duty cycle, a winding could have shorted from oxidation of the finish on the magnet wire it's wound with.
time to stop blabbering at the keyboard.
Sorry. just some thoughts on the failure spilled out.
Date: 26 Nov 2006 9:14 pm
Electro mechanical. I popped the top off one already. I think the potting came from the connector. i think I could clean everything up and reseal the relays and all would work. I just want to replace if I can. I'll get a pic in the PM tommorrow if i can't find an online diagram.
Thanks!
Date: 26 Nov 2006 9:39 pm
Seems the link I put in above for the panasonic was cookie based, so it doesn't work. This should...
http://rocky.digikey.com/scripts/ProductInfo.dll?Site=US&V=255&M=CB1-M-12V
Page 4 of the data sheet has the foot prints for the panasonic
http://pewa.panasonic.com/pcsd/product/auto/pdf_cat/cb.pdf
How many wires go to the Hella relay?
Does the same relay do the up AND down (I now assume it does)?
Depending on how things are wired.....
If they are using a single relay, than it's probably a DPDT. Which is a bit rare at this current level.
Or they can be using two SPDT relays for polarity swapping, which is more common configuration in the automotive world. (use more of the cheaper relays)
Date: 26 Nov 2006 9:55 pm
link deleted. (I checked my post in IE, clicked on the link and I got a warning from NAV. I was searching in FF, and browsing in FF, no problem. I have the linked bookmarked in FF. But I was on the forum in IE.)
Follow down to about the last 1/3 of the page.
(use the color hightlights from the bottom to find the Hella relay)
Not sure what the difference is with your "-16" vs the "-10" and "-20" listed.
But part of a p/n that far to the right, usually is some sort of option, with in a series.
The N figure, from what I can make out is supposed to be the Hella.
Just by looks, that looks exactly like the common automotive footprint/pin out for the Boschs I've used and what the panasonic looks like from the spec sheet.
Date: 26 Nov 2006 10:00 pm
I agree with you Bob, you have to be real careful when using Ebay. But like you said, if you pick the right sellers, you can get 90% of what you need on Ebay. I have sold 8 items on ebay and have bought probably 20 items...
Date: 26 Nov 2006 10:04 pm
Termy wrote:
I agree with you Bob, you have to be real careful when using Ebay. But like you said, if you pick the right sellers, you can get 90% of what you need on Ebay. I have sold 8 items on ebay and have bought probably 20 items...
Termy, your right. I've never myself had a problem on ebay buying.
But I'm soo careful. I buy what I cant find anywhere else and I'm as sure as I can be of what I'm getting.
Date: 27 Nov 2006 7:52 pm
Page 4 of the data sheet has the foot prints for the panasonic
Type 2 from page 4
How many wires go to the Hella relay?
4 wires to each relay
Does the same relay do the up AND down (I now assume it does)?
Eh?
Or they can be using two SPDT relays for polarity swapping, which is more common configuration in the automotive world.
It looks like it takes both relays to make anything happen. If I want to go up 1 relay connects the red to the blue and the 2 relay connects the black to the green. If I want to go down the 1 relay connects the black to the blue and the 2 relay connects the red the green.
Yes I wish there was a breakdown of what the Hella numbering system was/is. I'm going to try and find some time to call hella tommorrow and see if this relay has been discontinued and replaced with another because when you look at the new hella numbers for similar stuff they are like 003xxx instead of 960 xxx. But you can't tell without knowing their numbering system. Yes Bob i found a place today that skipped over the -16. What the heck?
Date: 27 Nov 2006 8:10 pm
robmints wrote:
Page 4 of the data sheet has the foot prints for the panasonic
Type 2 from page 4
Cool.. what I thought.
How many wires go to the Hella relay?
4 wires to each relay
So two are for the relay power and two are for the switched power to the motor.. ok. so it's a spst relay.. not a dpdt..(dpdt can be used for polarity switching.
Does the same relay do the up AND down (I now assume it does)?
Eh?
If it's a trim tab or tilt for the motor, it goes up and down, yes? no?
with a dpdt, one relay can be used do the up AND down... but would still need another to kill power.
It looks like it takes both relays to make anything happen. If I want to go up 1 relay connects the red to the blue and the 2 relay connects the black to the green. If I want to go down the 1 relay connects the black to the blue and the 2 relay connects the red the green.
Ok, it's the more common way.. just checking. There's more than one way to skin the cat and make it happen.
Yes I wish there was a breakdown of what the Hella numbering system was/is. I'm going to try and find some time to call hella tommorrow and see if this relay has been discontinued and replaced with another because when you look at the new hella numbers for similar stuff they are like 003xxx instead of 960 xxx. But you can't tell without knowing their numbering system. Yes Bob i found a place today that skipped over the -16. What the heck?
yea, that's what I found, posts on forum were guys were looking to replace relays just as you were on their boat setup, looking for the hella relay, just different -xx. I really suspect that panasonic relays will do it.
You can double check the dimensions on the panasonic drawing to the hella part you have in your hand. But I have a hunch it's a match.
There is maybe one post you might need to cut off, since yours is a spst, and the panasonic is a spdt.. if your socket doesn't have a female place for it. But most do, they just don't load it with a .250 quick connect socket and wire.
For the 10 bucks + shipping, buy 'em and try 'em.
A little RTV around the bottom and over the un-used clipped post if needed.
CB1-M-12V: 1
Records matching criteria: 1
Digi-Key Part Number 255-1830-ND Price Break
1 - 24 $4.46 ea
25 - 49 $4.09520 ea
Manufacturer Part Number CB1-M-12V
Description RELAY AUTO 12VDC SEAL BRKT TYPE
Quantity Available 1277
All prices are in US dollars
Coil Voltage 12VDC
Contact Rating 40A
Switch Function SPDT
Date: 27 Nov 2006 9:29 pm
Excuse me if I am being dense here and am not following the question/answers, but why not try this site that sells the Hella relays? :?
http://www.rallylights.com/hella/Relay_Mini_SPDT_12v.asp#87499
It appears that they have all of the relays and possibly a higher amperage one than what you have (plus the price looks like it is around $8 )
bbwb
Date: 27 Nov 2006 10:04 pm
Good link, good lead.
Just not clear on their contact ratings on the table..
The 20/40 or 20/30 " usually " indicates (if not called out somewhere):
inductive/resistive rating.
Commonly the current is derated for a motor or lighting load (20Adc)from the pure DC resistive load current rating (30 or 40Adc).
If so, none are rated high enough. Rob requires 40amp inductive min.
But I stress... " usually "...
Can't be 100% sure just the chart. It would take a call and someone on the other end having the complete Hella data sheet to confirm the ratings.
The B1 cofiguration should be the right configuration.
I use to be up on the material for the contact points, but been too long, don't remember now the attributes for each type anymore.
Date: 27 Nov 2006 10:45 pm
Okay, then how about this site?
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=eBasicPower&Category_Code=ALLRELAYS
These are for marine applications and continuous duty.
bbwb
Date: 28 Nov 2006 2:20 pm
Good site, lots of nice relays, some of the good big buggers too.
From that page...
Part Number: CDI852-9819
Weight: 0.2
Price: $11.95
Looks to be rated just fine and looks to be the same form factor.
It has the same ratings as the Panasonic.
But the Panasonic is almost a 1/3 the price ($4.46) , since it's right from a distributor not a dealer.
Either will work just fine.
Rob,
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=eBasicPower&Product_Code=CDI832-9809
See that relay harness in the pix in the link above..., does it look familiar?
Date: 28 Nov 2006 2:43 pm
The link you posted shows that this relay is no longer available.
bbwb
Date: 28 Nov 2006 2:58 pm
Quote:
Rob,
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=eBasicPower&Product_Code=CDI832-9809
See that relay harness in the pix in the link above..., does it look familiar?
It was just for reference for the harness/sockets pictured, for the relays.
It's a very common harness for the common form factor of relay we've been discussing.
I just wanted Rob to see it and if it looked familar.
Date: 29 Nov 2006 6:45 am
Thanks bbwb, I forgot all about ebasicpower. I think of them as a place for sterndrive stuff for some reason.
Yes Bob that is sort of like it. But mine has a terminal block so there are no jumpers and the relays don't have mounting flanges. In that picture it is a little funny looking because I can't tell where the switches go.
Date: 29 Nov 2006 9:26 am
ebasicpower, they have a nice selection. The pricing in the bigger bugger are better than my local rv dealer's pricing. Locally, they get about $30 - 35 for the high current ones.
The mounting flanges could be the difference in the last "-xx" on the p/n.
Those little flanges are easy to hack off.
Do the connnectors to the relay's look the same?
My thought is , If so the relay is a normal form factor and it seems you've got a few good options from the that links bbwb posted or digikey.
Date: 29 Nov 2006 10:25 am
Found a beast in what should be the right form factor.. never use it, but the company is suppose to make good relays.
80amp.
Factory spec sheet.
http://www.azettler.com/pdfs/az980.pdf
distributor with stock.
Qty in stock: 70
Price 0-49: $3.85
No way to supply a direct link,,
Gotta search on the p/n AZ980-1A-12D for the price to come up.
http://www.relaycenter.com
Date: 29 Nov 2006 7:48 pm
Relay center is giving me a SQL error right now.
I deal with Allied, I'll call them. Thanks a lot guys! I'll let you know how I make out.
Date: 29 Nov 2006 7:54 pm
Ah cool.
When I tried allied online, I didnt see stock..
But maybe you'll have better luck with your local branch of allied.